I enjoy listening to other peoples views and i do understand what u mean however; there may be a law against that kindof thing but these laws are never followed.
Take for example the dog eating by the Phillipines, there is a law against that yet it still goes on.
And besides animals being killed for human consumption are tortured at death and during their lives as well.
There is many secrets about the food industry. :p
Veganism
...And some of us know people in the food industry. Being in the school of agriculture here, we hear a lot about it. Plus, many of my fellow students have been employed in the food industry... one of my best friends has worked in poultry.
JWA is correct, I had forgotten about the antibodies and white blood cells found in milk, but my point was that that doesn't mean that cows are bleeding or anything of the sort. It would be a public health problem if they were. And governments are much more able to regulate companies that require liscences (which a dairy would) than black-market activities like eating dogs in the Phillippines. Once a company has a liscence, the government can check up on them any time and make sure abuses of that liscence are not occuring. I can't think of any product you would find in a grocery store/supermarket that would not have a liscence. Even the supermarket itself would have some sort of certification. The average street market vendor, especially in places like the Phillippines, may not have a liscence to operate, which makes it extremely difficult to regulate. Dogs eaten in the Phillippines is not comparable, IMO, with the dairy industry in the US, Canada, or western Europe.
JWA is correct, I had forgotten about the antibodies and white blood cells found in milk, but my point was that that doesn't mean that cows are bleeding or anything of the sort. It would be a public health problem if they were. And governments are much more able to regulate companies that require liscences (which a dairy would) than black-market activities like eating dogs in the Phillippines. Once a company has a liscence, the government can check up on them any time and make sure abuses of that liscence are not occuring. I can't think of any product you would find in a grocery store/supermarket that would not have a liscence. Even the supermarket itself would have some sort of certification. The average street market vendor, especially in places like the Phillippines, may not have a liscence to operate, which makes it extremely difficult to regulate. Dogs eaten in the Phillippines is not comparable, IMO, with the dairy industry in the US, Canada, or western Europe.
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LittleLion
- zoo guest
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Meltos i can beat her 
i've done loads of looking up on this and no about 5 people that live on farms 1 of wich specializes in killing cows and proccesing milk.
Nobody can realy say what goes on in the milk process but the people that are involved in it and i can gurantee his cows aren't exactly happy.
He talks about them as if they're nothing but a piece of dust.
And it isn't just the things in the milk that make me feel sick.
It's the way the cows are treated.
For a cow to produce milk it has to be pregnant as do humans.
It is therefore under a permanent pregnancy and; once the calf is born, it is taken from it's mother and taken to market.
This is an unfair emotional rollercoaster ride for both mother and calf and it can be prevented by less milk consumption.
Calfs are also being killed at slaughter houses for no particular reason and having their bodies left to rot on a pile.
I think it's disgusting
i've done loads of looking up on this and no about 5 people that live on farms 1 of wich specializes in killing cows and proccesing milk.
Nobody can realy say what goes on in the milk process but the people that are involved in it and i can gurantee his cows aren't exactly happy.
He talks about them as if they're nothing but a piece of dust.
And it isn't just the things in the milk that make me feel sick.
It's the way the cows are treated.
For a cow to produce milk it has to be pregnant as do humans.
It is therefore under a permanent pregnancy and; once the calf is born, it is taken from it's mother and taken to market.
This is an unfair emotional rollercoaster ride for both mother and calf and it can be prevented by less milk consumption.
Calfs are also being killed at slaughter houses for no particular reason and having their bodies left to rot on a pile.
I think it's disgusting
What's this? A challenge to my logic and intelligence?
I am not surprised, but that there is terrible economics. Why kill a calf the day it is born when if you feed it for one week it is worth huge sums of money as veal? Now don't get me started on veal, that is one type of meat I refuse to buy (the other would be force-fed duck liver pate, but I don't like the taste of liver anyway). But there are plenty of people who will buy it for at least $10 a pound! Well worth the slight losses in terms of milk, even if the cow and calf are separated. If you think that an "emotional rollercoaster" for a cow and calf is going to turn a meat-eater vegan, you are mistaken. Considering hormones (that are not passed through to the milk, no matter what some groups will try to tell you - I can get numbers for you if you insist) can effectively double the period that a cow is lactating from one calving.
If you look at my 3rd point, which is what I believe more than any particular tangible reason, you will see that this argument is wasted on me.
I have not tried to turn you from being a vegan. I am only defending my own position. And as for friends in the dairy industry, I have at least one of those too.
And I will warn you now... if anyone starts losing their temper, I will lock this thread. That's not the way to win people over to your side anyway
I am not surprised, but that there is terrible economics. Why kill a calf the day it is born when if you feed it for one week it is worth huge sums of money as veal? Now don't get me started on veal, that is one type of meat I refuse to buy (the other would be force-fed duck liver pate, but I don't like the taste of liver anyway). But there are plenty of people who will buy it for at least $10 a pound! Well worth the slight losses in terms of milk, even if the cow and calf are separated. If you think that an "emotional rollercoaster" for a cow and calf is going to turn a meat-eater vegan, you are mistaken. Considering hormones (that are not passed through to the milk, no matter what some groups will try to tell you - I can get numbers for you if you insist) can effectively double the period that a cow is lactating from one calving.
If you look at my 3rd point, which is what I believe more than any particular tangible reason, you will see that this argument is wasted on me.
I have not tried to turn you from being a vegan. I am only defending my own position. And as for friends in the dairy industry, I have at least one of those too.
And I will warn you now... if anyone starts losing their temper, I will lock this thread. That's not the way to win people over to your side anyway
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LittleLion
- zoo guest
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- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:32 pm
Heehee
I'm going through a stage in my life when ive decided to do some protesting for animal rights and, after being told i wasn't allowed to do it for real, have turned to the net as a way of protesting.
This could go on for a while if u like heehee.
I do my research
Now i think ill do 1 on the Phillipines.
I'e been working on that one since i was like 8 so it should be good
I'm going through a stage in my life when ive decided to do some protesting for animal rights and, after being told i wasn't allowed to do it for real, have turned to the net as a way of protesting.
This could go on for a while if u like heehee.
I do my research
Now i think ill do 1 on the Phillipines.
I'e been working on that one since i was like 8 so it should be good
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jwa1107
- african elephant keeper
- Posts: 9275
- Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:49 pm
- Location: Dallas, Texas
there are lots of generalisations in this thread; now I won't tell you whether you are right or wrong, but i will ask anyone who engages in a friendly debate at ZKL please do so in a civil manner (which you all have so far! 
) and please when you make your arguments/statements base them on ascertainable facts and not simply emotions.
saying animals killed for human consumption are tortured i think is grossly mistaken. at horse slaughterhouses they put a bolt through the animal's brain in a quick and efficient manner so the horse feels no pain and dies instantly.
) and please when you make your arguments/statements base them on ascertainable facts and not simply emotions.saying animals killed for human consumption are tortured i think is grossly mistaken. at horse slaughterhouses they put a bolt through the animal's brain in a quick and efficient manner so the horse feels no pain and dies instantly.
[img]http://sanctuary.damnserver.com/~prince ... newsig.jpg[/img]
All your base are belong to us.
All your base are belong to us.
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Cold Tiger
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LittleLion
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Jay
- african elephant keeper
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Oh boy... So much to talk about.
There can only be a discussion. There can't be winners or losers. Why? Because humans still know so little about everything, even though they pretend they know so much. As an example of what we don't know... Scientists thought they knew the value of oranges: the value of Vitamin C to reduce the likelihood of colds. Then, another study occurred a couple of years ago. It found that people who had as much Vitamin C as what oranges contained still had more colds than people that ate oranges. So, the conclusion is there is still another undiscovered vitamin in oranges.
So this discussion can't really be about facts or emotions. It is a discussion of beliefs. So... what are some of Jay's beliefs?
I do not like web sites such as the one at the start of this thread. Not because of their position, but because of their presentation. They are 1-sided and bend the truth. I like the recommendations of the U.S. FDA. They are required to update their recommendations periodically and did so earlier this month. Their recommendations lowered the amount people should eat from the meat group and increased the amounts from the vegetable and fruit groups. (Though I don't know how people can eat as much servings as what even the previous recommendations were.) They recognize that there are other sources for protein and (more importantly) calcium, but they still feel human bodies need portions from meat and dairy. They are not 1-sided. They also recognize the problems associated with meat, such as cholesterol and sodium. It is balance that is needed, the definition of which we are still trying to determine.
The government does allow limited amount of "undesirable" things in dairy products. But they allow limited amounts of "undesirable" things in everything... vegetables, meats, even drinking water. The limits are actually lower in dairy products than vegetables, which are lower than meats (hence, the recommendation to cook meats at minimum temperatures for a minimum time period). So one could say dairy products are cleaner than vegetable products. But, of course, the "undesirables" are different, so they can't be compared directly.
Sure, there are people doing bad and illegal things in all industries. But I never understood some of the arguments. "Some people are doing illegal and bad things, so let's eliminate the whole industry." Following that logic, people rob banks, so let's eliminate the banking industry. (Well, with how little interest I get, maybe that's a good idea.)
If I believed I could survive without needing to kill animals, I would do so. However, I would not stop there. We are killing plants also. I would not want to do that either if I could.
My best friend does not like the taste of meat. So, in a sense, his eating habits are like vegetarians. And he has been physically active. He does not smoke, take drugs, drink coffee, ... I think a vegetarian would say that he has been doing everything perfectly correct. Well he got cancer early in his life. I always believed and still believe that it is due to not eating enough meats. Fortunately, treatments worked and he is still around today. Of course, he still does not like the taste of meat and still has the same eating habits of old (for the most part, anyway). People have to live their own lifes.
So those are some of my beliefs.
There can only be a discussion. There can't be winners or losers. Why? Because humans still know so little about everything, even though they pretend they know so much. As an example of what we don't know... Scientists thought they knew the value of oranges: the value of Vitamin C to reduce the likelihood of colds. Then, another study occurred a couple of years ago. It found that people who had as much Vitamin C as what oranges contained still had more colds than people that ate oranges. So, the conclusion is there is still another undiscovered vitamin in oranges.
So this discussion can't really be about facts or emotions. It is a discussion of beliefs. So... what are some of Jay's beliefs?
I do not like web sites such as the one at the start of this thread. Not because of their position, but because of their presentation. They are 1-sided and bend the truth. I like the recommendations of the U.S. FDA. They are required to update their recommendations periodically and did so earlier this month. Their recommendations lowered the amount people should eat from the meat group and increased the amounts from the vegetable and fruit groups. (Though I don't know how people can eat as much servings as what even the previous recommendations were.) They recognize that there are other sources for protein and (more importantly) calcium, but they still feel human bodies need portions from meat and dairy. They are not 1-sided. They also recognize the problems associated with meat, such as cholesterol and sodium. It is balance that is needed, the definition of which we are still trying to determine.
The government does allow limited amount of "undesirable" things in dairy products. But they allow limited amounts of "undesirable" things in everything... vegetables, meats, even drinking water. The limits are actually lower in dairy products than vegetables, which are lower than meats (hence, the recommendation to cook meats at minimum temperatures for a minimum time period). So one could say dairy products are cleaner than vegetable products. But, of course, the "undesirables" are different, so they can't be compared directly.
Sure, there are people doing bad and illegal things in all industries. But I never understood some of the arguments. "Some people are doing illegal and bad things, so let's eliminate the whole industry." Following that logic, people rob banks, so let's eliminate the banking industry. (Well, with how little interest I get, maybe that's a good idea.)
If I believed I could survive without needing to kill animals, I would do so. However, I would not stop there. We are killing plants also. I would not want to do that either if I could.
My best friend does not like the taste of meat. So, in a sense, his eating habits are like vegetarians. And he has been physically active. He does not smoke, take drugs, drink coffee, ... I think a vegetarian would say that he has been doing everything perfectly correct. Well he got cancer early in his life. I always believed and still believe that it is due to not eating enough meats. Fortunately, treatments worked and he is still around today. Of course, he still does not like the taste of meat and still has the same eating habits of old (for the most part, anyway). People have to live their own lifes.
So those are some of my beliefs.
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Cold Tiger
- zoo member
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BrachiKari
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I agree with Jay and SL on this one.
Little, I have a friend that actually lives on a farm and raises cows. Like us, he is an animal lover, and hates the time for the cows to be sent off to the greener pastures in the sky. But, I ask you, did you consider what life the cows had?
All day, all they did was eat, laze around, and be content. I don't know about you, but that's a pretty nice life there. I know I'd rather laze around in a pasture than sit around and learn from the view of a student.
Of course, I will never turn down my true energy consumption ways. I am a true omnivore at heart.
Little, I have a friend that actually lives on a farm and raises cows. Like us, he is an animal lover, and hates the time for the cows to be sent off to the greener pastures in the sky. But, I ask you, did you consider what life the cows had?
All day, all they did was eat, laze around, and be content. I don't know about you, but that's a pretty nice life there. I know I'd rather laze around in a pasture than sit around and learn from the view of a student.
Of course, I will never turn down my true energy consumption ways. I am a true omnivore at heart.
<span style='font-family:Arial'><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>With HEART
comes HOPE</span></span>
With LOVE
comes EVERYTHING EVER WANTED
comes HOPE</span></span>
With LOVE
comes EVERYTHING EVER WANTED
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LittleLion
- zoo guest
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This may be how the cows on your friends farm are treated and i admit; it isn't every farm that is guilty of crulity but over the past few weeks i have been doing a lot of research about dairy farming and seen a lot of disturbing pictures; the cows are only allowed out on fields during summer months so they can get fattened up. For around 7 months in the winter they are put in pens barely big enough to stand up in!
Even free range isn't cruelity free; it may just mean the pens are slightly larger however even then the cow can barely move!
Also i found out some shocking news yesterday in a booklet i ordered through; the cows are given an electric shock; this, by law is meant to knock them out but a lot of the time; they are still conscious during the death! They are given the pain of an electric shock to their brains put on a conveyor belt and then have their throats cut! this happens to thousands of animals every day so that the animals can then be eaten by a meat loving human!
I feel it is very selfish and am ashamed to call myself human after finding all this out!!!
Even free range isn't cruelity free; it may just mean the pens are slightly larger however even then the cow can barely move!
Also i found out some shocking news yesterday in a booklet i ordered through; the cows are given an electric shock; this, by law is meant to knock them out but a lot of the time; they are still conscious during the death! They are given the pain of an electric shock to their brains put on a conveyor belt and then have their throats cut! this happens to thousands of animals every day so that the animals can then be eaten by a meat loving human!
I feel it is very selfish and am ashamed to call myself human after finding all this out!!!
Well, cows on pasture have plenty to eat in summer... but in winter it is cold outside and there isn't really anything growing. I think if the cows had the choice they would be indoors chowing down on hay or silage rather than out in the mud or snow digging up grass roots. Being herding animals I think it's a little silly to be saying that the conditions are too crowded, since they're comfortable that way. Now, if they were knee-deep in manure, I think it'd be a different story, but crowding I do not really see a problem with in herding animals. Cattle may look crowded in such conditions, but they don't exactly suffer claustrophobia the same way any people do in large crowds.
Jay does have many good points there.
Especially about such web sites being one-sided. That is the danger of the "information age"... it is also very easy to spread biased information or misinformation. So be careful what you believe because not everything you read is true!
Jay does have many good points there.
Especially about such web sites being one-sided. That is the danger of the "information age"... it is also very easy to spread biased information or misinformation. So be careful what you believe because not everything you read is true!